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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:26 am 
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I have 'by luck' come across a Goldmine Document that shows various free energy devices, including permanent magnet motors. There exists a metal alloy (nickel 77%, iron 16%, copper 5% and molybdenum 2%) that shields magnetic energy. I was not aware of this metal. This is what allows much simpler methods of magnet motors that quite literally can be made at home in ones spare time.

I feel that I did do well on my first attempt, even though I have since discovered that my method/design is far from great. I will now work on some new ones that utilise mu-metal, the name of this magnetic shield alloy. You can Google it, it is even mass produced in China! It was patented in 1923!!!

Ok, you might wander why I used luck above. I watched a video called Thrive - by Foster Gamble, which you can see here -> http://www.thrivemovement.com/the_movie

Thereafter I logged on to the website to see if I could find others who wish to actively participate in building workable alternative energy. While I did find groups that were putting up info, it is sad to say that there still seem to be few that are active in actually making these devices.


But I did find THIS -> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B97xUWshT-SPcHdsamI5VmZwTmc/edit

It is a 38 MB PDF file with LOTS of inventions with detailed diagrams. 2500 pages of 'em!

Check Bob Neal’s Compressed Air Engine (Chapter 8)
I do not recall if I posted my 'How to modify a conventional Internal Combustion Engine (diesel or petrol) into a fuel free engine on this site. My version uses the same compressed high gas to drive the engine, but creates the gas by a separate HHO burning system (simple to make) or alternatively one can stay with stage 1 and burn just about anything, from oil, petrol, vegetable oil, diesel that should achieve in excess of 1000 miles per gallon (figured for diesel)

LOL, I am getting stuck between reading further of the PDF file and trying to complete this post.

Mind Blowing stuff here, Including detailed diagrams for Stan Meyer, Lawton and Boyle's method fir electrolyses (including circuit diagrams.)

I think you will enjoy this file!

Oh, ps. I reread my last post, and it might have seemed to you (and or others) that I was arguing and splitting hairs on semantics. That is not the case and was not intended to seem that way. I was just (in my own mad way) trying to explain how and why I can go totally off topic and or design. I was SUPER hyperactive as a child (what they now call ADD or ADHD) and up until the age of 40 I almost NEVER (could not) sleep more than 4 hours per day. Up until the age of 14, I could not eat a banana or drink a cup of coffee, because if I did, I went on a super speed buzz and did not sleep for 5 to 7 days. We are on the same page and you are one of the few people I can communicate with (because you have an attention span greater than 2 minutes (The Lemmings) and because you listen and add valuable data (math formulae or ideas) that are valid and useful.

pps. In Thrive - Foster Gamble (interesting surname I bet) There is a quote:-
Quote:
Who controls the food supply
controls the people;

who controls the energy
can control whole continents;

who controls the money
can control the world.

Henry Kissinger in 1973


1.This means a solid long term progressive action which is very simple and cheap, is once a month, get some non GMO fruit tree seeds (apples, pears, nuts or whatever does well in your local climate) and shove 'em in a hole (made by pencil type spike) in the earth. By the time anyone notices that these 'shrubs' are actual fruit bearing trees, they will already be established.

2. Build yourself (and for friends) a simple generator/battery/inverter system. If you are ambitious, then make a go-kart or motorcycle with either a resource free motor/electric engine or at least a more efficient engine than the fossil burners.

3. The control of global money falls away (rapidly once step 1 & 2 become more commonplace) because the global awakening will quickly register that money is NOT what we actually need for basic food, transport and energy.

Wham, Bam, NWO goes 6 feet under.


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:59 am 
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mbrownn wrote:
Im working on a 1040s technology, when I have it sorted I will know enough to implement new tech into the design and make it a worthwhile device. Then the modern engineers will be able to take it and refine it further, this is the detail I am talking about.

The need for big power plants will diminish resulting in a more reliable system and a dramatic reduction in burning fossil fuels. A win win situation.


The problem with the first part of your statement is that we design something new, but unless WE make it, it seldom goes further. I have designed at least 20 new ideas and made working machinery. These were at the time predominantly for my own manufacturing business. These designs allowed me to manufacture product cheaper and with less staff and outlay than my competition. One primary example, was a machine system that made a product that was used in the mines. It cost me about R20 000 to build (ZAR - as USD that was then about $2000) and the closest available machinery at the time was manufactured in Japan and retailed at 4 million Euro's. Not only that, that machine could not make the product without further in house modification.

The Lemmings by systematic indoctrination or whatever, somehow turn AWAY from building these things, be they 'stolen' copies or with consent. Just recently, (well sort of recently - in 2006) I designed and programmed a database for a family business (three brothers) that allowed them to easily store all their stock on a database. The reason this was difficult to do, was because they trade in B-Grade steel. This means that every parcel of steel was unique. Either non standard size, or rusted, off-spec variation in thickness, the list goes on.

This means that I had to find a way of using specific signifier description of the parcels as the key identifier. The reason they needed this database is because on their floor they hold in excess of 3000 metric tons of stock. They also (due to bad storage system) only have a vague idea of what they actually stock. It took me 3 months of coding to finally reach a solution. I did all this as a favour, since I was subcontracting to them on another project. Once completed, I loaded the DB into their computers and their statement was, 'But how will we get all our stock typed into this database?' I told them that they can add all new incoming stock into the DB, and slowly but systematically add the rest a bit at a time. It is now 2015 (almost) and they STILL have no idea of what is on their floor and do not use the DB.....!

What I am trying to say is that people like us design stuff, but those that should leap gratefully into the action of implementing and refining the design/invention, do NOTHING!

With regards to the second part of your quote, to me it seems obvious and preferable that anyone who can have a cheaper and more efficient system, be it vehicle motor, electricity generator, or whatever, should jump at the chance even if their primary reason is to save money. This in turn would make all the big institution 'necessities' like electricity plants, coal mines, Oil Rigs, etc. redundant. Yet your average Joe seems to fail to see that their 'small' electricity bill is the cause of their job (just over broke) status. They seem to see free vehicle, free electricity and free food (fruit, veg etc.) as too small a drain on their money to be worth bothering about.

If we cut off their legs, they would not be inconvenienced much, because couch potatoes do not need legs to watch the television.


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:05 pm 
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BlueMental wrote:

The problem with the first part of your statement is that we design something new, but unless WE make it, it seldom goes further.
Correct

BlueMental wrote:
What I am trying to say is that people like us design stuff, but those that should leap gratefully into the action of implementing and refining the design/invention, do NOTHING!
Correct

BlueMental wrote:
With regards to the second part of your quote, to me it seems obvious and preferable that anyone who can have a cheaper and more efficient system, be it vehicle motor, electricity generator, or whatever, should jump at the chance even if their primary reason is to save money. This in turn would make all the big institution 'necessities' like electricity plants, coal mines, Oil Rigs, etc. redundant.
You would think so but it never works like that. the problem lays with our lack of ability to produce a fully developed and refined off the shelf product. Without millions of dollars and resources the best we can do is produce crude prototypes which are only attractive to a minority. Having said all that, by producing these prototypes in enough variations and quantities for enough time, it will eventually feed into the mainstream thinking and demand will increase causing the big manufacturers to look at it. Our job to some extent is to make sure the technology isnt lost. Modern education makes engineers that are not capable of working across multiple disciplines, and so they cant believe what the capabilities of some of these devices are, causing them to dismiss it.

I dont think that the major institutions will become totally redundant but our reliance on them will be reduced in the same way as our reliance on horses has been reduced. They havent gone altogether but they arnt a necessity either.

BlueMental wrote:
Yet your average Joe seems to fail to see that their 'small' electricity bill is the cause of their job (just over broke) status. They seem to see free vehicle, free electricity and free food (fruit, veg etc.) as too small a drain on their money to be worth bothering about.
The truth here is they will never be totally free or even cheap, especially if the Wanksters have anything to do with it. The best we can hope for is less expensive than it is today.

BlueMental wrote:
If we cut off their legs, they would not be inconvenienced much, because couch potatoes do not need legs to watch the television.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Love this one


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:48 am 
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I have designed my first MuMetal Magnet Motor, but I will post the GIF Anim and give explanations in a later post.

Why?
Because I first want to design the second one - it is simpler and easier to understand. The first one will make a lot more sense to you if you have bought and messed around with Neo (or other) magnets. The more you mess around with them, the more you find these weird happenings that happen to the magnetic fields when combing magnets together. These things seem to make no linear sense, yet they remain consistent and provide 'loopholes' as to what we can achieve with the magnets. Because of this, any explanations do not make sense. It is one of those things that you have to do yourself to figure out, or at least partially figure out. There is a 'magic' side to magnets that can be found, but not explained.

I hope you downloaded the PDF file. There is an awesome amount of detailed and usable data in there. Methinks that Patrick J. Kelly's major strong point is in finding and collating data. Many thanks Patrick!


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:40 pm 
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To be honest I am no expert at working with magnets and I think you will have more knowledge than me in this area, but I await your posts.


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:26 pm 
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Knowledge?

We like to think we have knowledge... or at least that is our theory... based on what we were told and what we saw (the day after the party with blurry eyes and a screaming headache).

I know only two things.
1. I know NOTHING.
2. I lie, and that IS the truth!

Ok, here we go, I reckon the pics explain themselves. The Black stuff is the MuMetal Magnetic Shields, while the rest is self explanatory. I put grid lines on the stator stuff as a visual reference that it is not moving.
With regards to the simpler version, the one where there are multiple (12 actually) magnets in both stator and rotor, all it takes is a spin and the magnets are North to North, so the stator pushes the rotor magnets. The black lines are just for a visual 'description' of when they start pushing and when the MuMetal Shields cut them off. Notice that the shields are part of the Rotor. They do not need to be moved relative to the rotor.

With the second one, the one with two disc (actually they are cylindrical but it is easier to type disc you still know what I mean) ---{Know??? Nuttin! No Proof!!! Ask Tron!}---- stator magnets, one above and one below the rotor, these are opposing magnetic fields. So the stator pulls the rotor magnets. If you take two square magnets and a sheet of perspex or glass. You place one above and one below the sheet. You will find that they stick to each other with linear rigidity. In other words, the magnetic fields will keep the edges of the square magnets in line. If we rotate one magnet, the other will not rotate, but if we move it laterally along the glass while slowly revolving the one you move, in this case the following magnet revolves as well. So the magnetic field keeps a shape form as well, even though when stationary it 'is not there'.

Another thing to check. If we hold one of the magnets in place, while we move the other one half the distance of the square across, and we le the held one go, it jumps to the exact same placement as the moved magnet.

In the double disc magnet stator, we place the MuMetal shields to cover half of the rotor magnets, while both above and below, the stator magnets 'grab' the half of the rotor magnet that is unshielded. From the shape of the magnet field of the rotor magnets, they will try to 'jump' in line with the stator magnets. We are however not certain how the shield interferes with the rotor magnet fields. The fields must flow, so it is likely that the shields distort or bend them somehow, but it can not stop them per say. They are more likely suppressed and deformed. There is a 'breathing space' between the rotor magnets, the shield and the stator magnets. If the fields have any form of 'kinetic energy' or 'momentum' then it is likely that there will be at least a partial 'overflow' of the rotor magnetic fields that try (like racers at speed) to go 'beyond' the shield before their abrupt turnaround to get back 'home'. Likewise the same will occur from the stator magnets.

This is all only theory, and unfortunately I do not currently have enough money to buy some MuMetal, but I reckon that both these motors will work.

The 'simpler' one is almost guaranteed to work. Since there is definitely push room between the magnets (rotor and stator) after they cross places. The shield removes the barrier while the rotor magnet approaches the stator magnet. Only after the rotor magnet has passed the stator magnet is there place for the fields to interact. Since the rotor is already past, the fulcrum instantly pushes the rotor magnet away. The only way to 'switch off' the motor, will be to 'stall' the motor, or to build in a sliding stator that can be dropped below the rotors field range.

With a bit of experimenting with gaps between rotor magnet to shield to stator magnet, as well as exactly how much of the rotor magnet is shielded (think of it as timing), one should be able to find the field interactions 'sweet spot'. It would probably be best to make the shield adjustable, both gap distance and rotational positioning (where exactly the starting point relative to the rotor magnet begins).

Similar experimentation applies to the more 'complex' motor - 2 disc stator.

One other thing to consider with the 2 disc stator. It might be better to use layered neo magnets instead of disc magnets. They are placed North to South and tilted at an angle to each other. For a better description/explanation than the feeble attempt I just gave you, you can check Chapter 1 - Page 30 in the 'Practical Guide to Free Energy Devices (Link in prior post) - Alternatively you can find it in the bookmarks (or search for) under 'Simple Permanent Motors'

Which brings up a new subtopic. If that Simple Magnet Motor works (the one in the PDF file), then my versions with the MuMetal are obsolete. I should be able to give that one a field test pretty soon.

Ok... enough blah blah, if there is anything that does not make sense in the pics, just ask and I will clarify.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DAE6U0huwpVXZBdVdHc2JuQlk/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DAE6U0huwpQngzS1BfSElFQWs/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DAE6U0huwpcTFRb2d6M2Z3QkU/view?usp=sharing


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:00 am 
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I understand the animations and in simple terms it should work. in practice it is often different. :(

When shielding a magnet, often the flux you are trying to hide gets bunched up causing a more intense field that is harder to pass. Try this experiment.

Take 2 identical magnets and place them north to south and use them to pick up pieces of iron. when you find a piece of iron that is a little too heavy to pick up, place the magnets north to north and push them together. now out of the side of these two magnets, where the poles meet, is an intense magnetic field that is now strong enough to pick up that piece of iron. The question is will that happen with the MuMetal :?:

The other method of manipulating the field is giving it an iron path to follow taking it away from the area where you don’t want it. This of course takes away some of the strength where you do want it.

Now for my speculation, I dont know if MU Metal is repelled from a magnet, but if it isnt, it could be used to switch the path of flux through an iron path by having a small air gap in that path where the MuMetal can be inserted. Hope you can visualise my description.

If MuMetal is repelled all this effort may be of no use.

The use of MuMetal and flux paths may be a solution and I encourage you to experiment, but the only method I have come across where we can switch on and off a permanent magnet is with an electromagnet. However the magnetic fiields can be manipulated with other magnets flux paths and MuMetal.

In every experiment I did with permanent magnets, the effort required to pass repelling poles was always equal or greater than the push given by the repulsion. Thats why I use electro magnets.

Im not trying to put you off, I want you to succeed, so I am posting problems that I am aware of so that you can plan to work around them. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:27 am 
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mbrownn wrote:
Take 2 identical magnets and place them north to south and use them to pick up pieces of iron. when you find a piece of iron that is a little too heavy to pick up, place the magnets north to north and push them together. now out of the side of these two magnets, where the poles meet, is an intense magnetic field that is now strong enough to pick up that piece of iron. The question is will that happen with the MuMetal :?:


What you speak of here gives me the following speculation:- The 'length' of the field seems to remain constant. Think of it - for simplicity sake- as a 'circumference' of an ellipse. And these ellipses are 'layered' around the core magnet, increasing in circumference size, but not in strength as they go further away from the core. Since the two magnets are opposing, these ellipses get 'squashed' closer together, but it seems the travel 'length' does not decrease. In other words they are closer together, but the same 'area' of field remains the same, so the height of the ellipse extends because the width is compressed.

This is all just speculation. As to how it works with MuMetal, my guess is as good as yours. I do see however in the PDF file that Robert Tracy's Permanent Magnet Motor uses solenoids to push/pull the MuMetal shields into place. It does not state if the permanent magnet field is greater, lesser or equal to each corresponding solenoid coil.

It all boils down to whether or not MuMetal acts in the same fashion as non-magnetic materials (no energy impact on that which pulls or pushes it) or if it offers resistance. If however the MuMetal has similar properties like normal ferrous metals while negating (shielding) the magnet beneath, then it should be weaker than a coil shield. Guessing is all I can do here until I have some MuMetal.

There is a Spec page here:- http://www.mumetal.com/mumetal_specifications.html
but it is pretty meaningless to me.

I see that 'Add image to post) thing below still uses free imageshack site, but it didn't work with anim gif's - weird.

Image


mbrownn wrote:
Now for my speculation, I dont know if MU Metal is repelled from a magnet, but if it isnt, it could be used to switch the path of flux through an iron path by having a small air gap in that path where the MuMetal can be inserted. Hope you can visualise my description.

If MuMetal is repelled all this effort may be of no use.



mbrownn wrote:
In every experiment I did with permanent magnets, the effort required to pass repelling poles was always equal or greater than the push given by the repulsion. Thats why I use electro magnets.

Im not trying to put you off, I want you to succeed, so I am posting problems that I am aware of so that you can plan to work around them. ;)

Constructive criticism is of great value and appreciated.

It seems that using coil shields between permanent magnets allows greater motor power than coil magnets to permanent magnets, else why have any bothered? It would be a redundancy if the energy needed for the shield coils is equal to the energy consumed in a coil to create an equal strength magnetic field.

Anyway, I hope someone who has MuMetal or can get some without much hassle experiments with this further.


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:12 am 
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BlueMental wrote:
What you speak of here gives me the following speculation:- The 'length' of the field seems to remain constant. Think of it - for simplicity sake- as a 'circumference' of an ellipse. And these ellipses are 'layered' around the core magnet, increasing in circumference size, but not in strength as they go further away from the core. Since the two magnets are opposing, these ellipses get 'squashed' closer together, but it seems the travel 'length' does not decrease. In other words they are closer together, but the same 'area' of field remains the same, so the height of the ellipse extends because the width is compressed.
Thats pretty much how I see it.

BlueMental wrote:
It all boils down to whether or not MuMetal acts in the same fashion as non-magnetic materials (no energy impact on that which pulls or pushes it) or if it offers resistance. If however the MuMetal has similar properties like normal ferrous metals while negating (shielding) the magnet beneath, then it should be weaker than a coil shield. Guessing is all I can do here until I have some MuMetal.
Exactly, I have no idea

BlueMental wrote:
It seems that using coil shields between permanent magnets allows greater motor power than coil magnets to permanent magnets, else why have any bothered? It would be a redundancy if the energy needed for the shield coils is equal to the energy consumed in a coil to create an equal strength magnetic field.
As i see it, a motor can be designed so that the electromagnetic shielding could be arranged to add to the rotational force, so in effect we have a combination of permanent magnet and electromagnetic flux to power our motor.

What I have been doing, is very different to what you have been doing but I have been able to do this. Then by adding a coil wrapped around the iron flux path it has generated at the same time as motoring. This generation benefits from the field strength of the permanent magnet and the electromagnet therefore in theory could be greater than the input power to the powered coil. In reality the motors that I modified were only 35% efficient so my output was always less than my input but I think the principle is valid.

Permanent magnet flux = 50% + electromagnet flux at 50% is the input. Assuming no losses the generation would be 100% which is double the input.

reality was more like this

Permanent magnet flux = 50% + electromagnet flux at 50% x motor efficiency at 35%. Therefore generation would be 35% ie less than the electrical input. :(

For this to work, I would need a motor efficiency of greater than 50% which is possible.

Going back to your concept, you are likely to have some cogging which is going to give a variation of intensity of magnetic flux. If we place a coil in this area we will get a generated current in the coil which can be collected with little effect on the motor performance, but now im complicating your design and we havent even proven the concept yet :lol:

One other thing to consider, look at operating the motor in attraction instead of repulsion, It may be possible and there are some advantages that could be exploited later.


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:50 pm 
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mbrownn wrote:
Going back to your concept, you are likely to have some cogging which is going to give a variation of intensity of magnetic flux. If we place a coil in this area we will get a generated current in the coil which can be collected with little effect on the motor performance, but now im complicating your design and we havent even proven the concept yet :lol:

One other thing to consider, look at operating the motor in attraction instead of repulsion, It may be possible and there are some advantages that could be exploited later.


On this 'New Type Of Electric Motor' - my versions - it is not really a design. It is more, until I can do some real world practical experimenting, hypothetical conceptual brainstorming, aka 'theoretical thumbsucking'.

If it gets more or less complicated is not really relevant. What is more valid is that these discussions, might trigger subconscious epiphanies or 'Eureka moments' for you, other readers or myself.

Which brings me to a 'new' thought. Let us say that we have a rotor, with 12 Neo magnets (10x10x3) all with North facing up. The stator is above these with 12 magnets (same size) with South facing down. Sandwiched between these two, are 12 coils. Using a relevant timing pick up, irrelevant on exact method for now, that sequentially makes the stator South Magnets Double South Flux (as if there were 2 magnets on the stator) and then shields them once the rotor is in place. The sequence begins again once the rotor takes the N magnets past the halfway mark and re-triggers the South Doubling to shield sequence.

This means that the current required would be the equivalent energy spent to create a duplicate of one magnet for the entire 360 deg revolution, except the small 'changeover' period (to avoid braking).

So we have a stator that alternates between 2x pull to 1x push.

Would the kinetic and momentum gives us a >1.0 COP?

Something to think about.


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