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 Post subject: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:30 pm 
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An idea occurred to me, (rare though this might be, I promise it to be true), about how a conventional electric motor works.

A current gets passed through a coil, which in turn magnetises a core piece of metal. The corresponding magnetic field reacts to a permanent magnet which is what causes the rotation. (Pretty loose description of conventional motors.)

The thought that occurred to me was along the following lines. The strength yieled by the coil magnates is directly related to the number of coils and current required to generate the magnetic field. So to get a stronger motor, we need more coils and more current.

A solenoid switch is used as a low current sidestep to link a larger current drawing switch. This allows us to use a small current to do a bigger job. The same can be applied to magnets. If we use a small current to push a Neo Magnet into place, we vastly increase the magnetic field 'produced' with an extremely small use of electrical current.

There are various aspects that are limiting in this concept. The primary one being the speed that the physical magnet can be pushed in and out of place, and it's corollary effect regarding how much current (and coils) will be required for the solonoid to use less current than a conventional motor would use.

I am working on a practical design for this motor and I will post it once complete.


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:02 pm 
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I hear what you are saying.

Hear is a few things to consider :-

1) a small current will require many turns to give a reasonable force from your solenoid, this will mean that the ohmic resistance will increase and so will require a higher voltage and so higher power.

2) Higher ohmic resistance means more losses.

3) On the positive side, a coil with many turns will have a high inductance which means that it will be easy to collect any inductive kickback to recover energy that you put into the solenoid.

Most of these types of forums tend to go for high voltage and low current. I don't have a problem with that, but when working with motors that does tend to lead to ohmic losses as we have many turns on the coils.

Im not sure how you intend to do this, maybe a drawing would help me understand.


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:03 am 
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Agreed, The thing is there are mechanical 'tricks' that overcome this.

To start, we are working with the simplest possible workable system, That being:-
- 1 magnet on the rotor
- 1 magnet on a linear floating path parallel to Rotor Axis, pushed by solenoid
- the magnets repell (N to N)

Here is a simple sketch. Unfortunately I can not figure out how to set it up as a viewable image via Google Drive. (ImageShack which I used to use for this is no longer free so I can not upload it there)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DAE6U0huwpbFl4MV9uamhEZU0/view?usp=sharing

OK, hopefully the basic concept is clear from this description. Now the reason we need mechanical 'tricks' is as follows.
The solenoid pushes the Stator Magnet above the Rotor Magnet, however since the magnets repel each other, the limit fals to the coil pushing the solenoid (and friction, momentum, kinetics etc. involved in moving the part)
This means in essence that we actually have a weaker magnetic force from Stator to Rotor Magnet. The amount of magnetic force created by the solenoid has to equal or exceed the manetic force between the Rotor and Stator Magnets.
So we have to add a second disc to the rotor shaft that has a pull magnet that pulls the floating Stator mechanism into place. So in effect the Solenoid only needs to be strong enough to push the floater near enough for the Rotor 2nd Disc Magnet to 'grab' it. Since this 2nd magnet rotates, it loses the 'grab' that allows the floater to return to it's original 'open' position (either by spring or reverse solenoid, whichever works out more efficient).

We can use ferrous metal to ensure the floater remains 'grabbed' until the Rotor and Stator magnates are no longer repelling each other, or we could used a longer (rectangular) magnet as the second disc's 'grab' magnet.

We can also place a 'pusher' magnet (N to S) to push the Stator floating mechanism back to original 'open' placement

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DAE6U0huwpU1ZxM3FsRVJScG8/view?usp=sharing

Now that the basic concept is more clear, we can explore possibilities.

We can put multiple magnets on the Rotor disc, limited primarilly by diameter size. (> diameter = > circumference = more space for more magnets). The same can be done on the Stator mechanism.
We can use large or linked Neo Magnets - for example a 50x20x8 Magnet is incredibly much stronger than the 10x10x3.

The timing issues might cause a problem electronically. In other words we most likely cannot use the same circuirtry as a conventional motor (assuming we had 4 solenoids on the stator side). What would most likely be more effective would be magnet sensors on the primary Rotor disc to trigger the solenoid.

The floating system would need to be as friction free as possible - bearings required.

Since there is a mechanical moving mechanism which cannot work as fast as an electronic circuit, the RPM of a motor like this will most likely be much slower than a conventional motor, however the dramatic increase in power will be far greater than the loss (friction etc.) in a mechanical gearbox to increase spped to equal conventionbal speed if needed.
(380v motors are usually 1440 RPM)

Finally, yes, since I mentioned the 380V motors, it is that type of motor where this will be most effective as opposed to low amperage PC fan motors etc.

I hope the images are viewable, and if you know how I can get them to be seen directly, please let me know.


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:44 pm 
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I can see the images, yes i understand your concept. Can I make a suggestion?

Maybe having one more magnet on the rotor than magnets pulling the solonoids to reduce cogging. or vice versa. This is for your pull in magnets so as the rotor turns it will break free the attraction from the pull in magnet with little cost in power.

Take a look at this generator http://www.overunity.org.uk/showthread. ... nner/page2 Imagine this is the setup for your pull in magnets. Not sure how you would do it but it may be a way around braking your solenoids free from the magnets


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:19 pm 
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I have looked at the link you provided. I will look in greater detail later.

Something for you to consider. The 'grabber magnet' rotates on the disc. It offers a linear pull to the solenoid mechanism. The driving magnet provides a rotational 'push' to the rotor magnate on the primary driving disc. Since the pull between the grabber magnates is lateral (parallel to the axis of the rotor) it has no rotory effect o the rotor. That is until it the grabber disc begins to rotate beyond the magnetic field of the solenoid's grabber magnet.

This can be dealt with in various ways. The initial 'grab' is required to allow the driver magnet on the solenoid mechanism to push the primary rotor magnet. Once this is achieved, we wish to minimise the attraction between the grabber magnets. If we place the rotor's grabber magnate on a non ferrous metal, let us say non magnetic stailess steel, then the magnetic field has a solid finite stability surrouding both grabber magnets - for ease of discussion let us call them Solenoid Grabber (SG) and Rotory Grabber (RG).

In this case, there is a distinct rotational pull when RG tries to leave the field area of SG. This naturally pull against the rotation and is bad for the motor.

If however the disc that holds the RG holds an arc which progresses from non ferrous (stainless Steel) to ferrous (Mild Steel), we now have a dissipating magnetic field. This can be done with alloys (complex but do-able) or bonding 2 tapering arcs, one magnetic the other not. When the RG begins to leave the fixed magnetic field of the SG, the SG exchanges it's grab from the RG to the ferrous metal part of the RG mounting base. As the rotation continues, the ferrous part of the RG mounting base gets thinner, so the pull lessens.

Regarding multiple magnets, yes, that is the aim, however we need to first achieve the most efficient method with the least possible working parts. This is Occam's Razor in practise. :- Anything that is not essential to a workable solution is null and void.

Now that we have achieved (hypothetically) a rotational motor that provides more usable power with magnets than a conventional motor can with coils only, we can move on to the next step.

What are our available resources in this model?

Still in the single magnet model (single in terms of the Rotor's Driven Magnet(DM)), we actually have 2 magnets that can be accessed on the rotor section. Those being the DM and the RG. We can then set up an SSG circuit, where the driving power goes to the Solenoid coil, and the Spike pickup (2 of for now) go to the coils placed at the location of the RG and behind the DM.

Assume we then use an array of 6 magnets (driven combined with their Grabber counterparts), we can choose a variiety of experiments here. We can try one SSG circuit that feeds the solenoid for only one of the driven magnets, while running 12 pickup coils for the 6 'driven' magnets and their GM counterparts.

We can use 6 separate SSG circuits that are offset with pickups going in parallel to a single battery (or fed into the grid).

We can use a non SSG primary drive circuit for the solenoid (assuming timing an SSG circuit to correspond with the physical rotation speed can not be accomplished), and use pickups via an SSG circuit for generation purposes.

If none of the SSG aspects in this hypothesis actually work, and the extra power achieved for the motor alone works, we have still achieved a great deal.

While I am not electronically 'clued up', you might recall that I ran a 20W halogen globe for 7 hours through an SSG fan system that left my batties at 13.3v (charging battery at full charge) and 11.5v for the driving battery. (These numbers might be out by a bit - my memory is not precise.) If I recall, a single battery feeding the same 20W halogen lamp dropped to around 11v after plus minus 20 or 30 minutes.

The reason I'm stating this, is that with a bit of experimenting I reckon that I can equal or exceed a 3hp 220v motor with Neo Magnets and the same 2 batteries I used with the 20W globe.

This can be translated into a 3hp motor that uses the same power currently needed to run a PC fan - This is excluding any SSG circuitry - if the model uses 4 solenoids with coils of the same specs as a PC fan.


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:32 am 
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Like you I am no electronics guy, I am mechanical, thats why I like mechanical switching.

Keep posting and ill see if I can grasp it.


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:31 pm 
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OK, here is a bit more to get the idea accross.

These are animated GIF's of a loose CAD design. Understand that while this is a theoretically workable design, it is very general in nature. That is that it does not include all of the 'hidden' teething problems that occur in design. For example, there are possible 'obstructions' that can occur between the Solenoid Driving magnets that may overlap the Rotor Grabber magnets as their paths overlap. These issues can only be surmounted by physical experimental measurement of magnetic fields. In other words by doing these investigations, we can discover if the height variance allows the path overlap to be outside the field 'boundaries'.

Other things, like, 'how far away from the Rotary driven magnets do the driver magnets need to be so they are fully out of influential range?' This relates directly to how much distance (and with further investigation), and how strong the solenoids magnetic field must be to engage correctly.

The physical time restraints of the solenoid slider vary dinamically regarding these distance and/or field strengths. This also relates directly to how much current (spending of electrical energy) is required.

Other dynamic 'teething problems' are related to how one would go about the 'timing' of triggerring the solenoids. If we use an SSG circuit that triggers the solenoid coils directly, the delay in time for the Driving Magnet to physicall reach the correct position to push the Rotor Driven Magnet, will always be delayed. So what is the best solution? It can be Electronic Magnet Switches on a physical 'sliding' system so it can be altered to find the right 'timing', or it can be done through Arduino type systems through coding.

All of these 'teething problems' are however nothing more than 'details'. The core concept is solid, so the means is achievable. As to which method is best, trial and error. Alteration of the Rotor Diameter, the number of Solenoid/Magnet configurations, the size and impact of the various magnets as well as the strength of the solenoids (and those other 'hidden' incongeuencies or 'lucky' bypasses we cannot percieve until they hit us directly.)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DAE6U0huwpYTlPNW83TTE1Yjg/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DAE6U0huwpQkpZMzV4MTNwUEE/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_DAE6U0huwpSHcyNU1ORUd5YzA/view?usp=sharing

One of the things most people overlook about what is often called Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) is the following:- Once the core is reached, all that remains is minor detail. Leaving the details to those who enjoy linear drudgery is considered as a lack of attention. The point being, why pay any further attention to something that is already complete?


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:08 pm 
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Its good to see you are thinking this through, its in the detail that makes the difference between success and failure. Thats the progress


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:47 pm 
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There are details and there are details...

Detail in core fundamental concept is crucial. Detail in variety of choice in implementation is othing more than fashion.

A wheel with flashing lights, a wheel with lightweight alloy, a wheel with electronic antibraking and a wheel on a childs toy car are all the same. The core detail that allows the wheel to work is the same. The rest is of extremely low value.

Accepted social and business values consider profitability to be a core value. Because of this, the quality of produce is intentionally designed to fail. How can more be sold if an item has a working lifespan of 100 years?

So this means that it is ANTI-economy to create a motor that uses less electricity with fewer breaking/wearing parts. The entire economic and sociopolitical infrastructure has become parasitic. As long as a Nations Gross Domestic Product (GDP) increases, it is promoted as being 'good for progress' and 'beneficial', however the exact opposite is true. Since increased GDP of inferior quality goods means in truth that vast quantities of time, energy and resources are spent on product that should not be needed.

If product design and manufacture held quality, durability and efficiency as primary values, then increased GDP is of value.

As long as the world works from the top down in the hierarchical system that is currently in place, the parasite continues to kill the host.

Working from the ground up is the only way that is effective. A solid, efficient and happy brick is a solid, efficient and happy wall, is a solid efficient and happy mansion...

We as humanity might (if enough people wake up in time) still exist in 100 years. If we continue on the path with the warped values we currently hold, we will not make it.

Progress without responsibility to our resources; fellow human beings, animals and nature; is not progress at all. It is regression.


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 Post subject: Re: A different type of Electric Motor
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:02 pm 
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The argument put by the accountants that is used today does not hold water, if it were true we would be still using horses and carts because we did not need to replace them because they work. Yes it can be argued by them that there is no money in overunity devices for the reasons given above but in truth, nothing lasts for ever, it wears out and needs to be maintained. As new discoveries are made the old tech becomes obsolete.

Building redundancy into products is counter productive and a waste of money and resources. A bulb designed to last only 1000 hours has to be replaced after 1000 hours so a whole industry is set up to replace bulbs just how the accountants want it, but for a small increase in cost these bulbs could last 100,000 or 1,000,000 hours. The savings made on not replacing bulbs, would allow for the development of new technology instead of locking us into the existing one. This is how it was 150 years ago and look at the advancements we were making then. This all but ended after the second world war when the accountants, you could say bankers although I use the letter W at the beginning of that word, started to dominate all industries.

In the days when most products were over engineered, more developments were made in new tech, this was for many reasons but our modern business model is one of the reasons it stopped.

I think we are on the same page when it comes to our modern world, and the good news is more people are waking up to the problem.

Im working on a 1040s technology, when I have it sorted I will know enough to implement new tech into the design and make it a worthwhile device. Then the modern engineers will be able to take it and refine it further, this is the detail I am talking about.

The need for big power plants will diminish resulting in a more reliable system and a dramatic reduction in burning fossil fuels. A win win situation.


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