Imhotep's Lab Interactive FAQ

hello again,

Unfortunately, i must wait as i had to order the recommended fan - no radio shack components in edmonton, alberta, canada anymore

I am hoping to pick another one up tonight - on sale for $18.00 - its a nice cool blue looker
eauuuuu
aaaahhhh
oooohh
yeeaahhhhh ...

i had seen the Fan pic that you had rescued for Shiva and maybe they are the same -
Shiva mentioned there was something special about hers - cant wait to see what she meant - and also - she is testing a fan without altering the motor???
Very curious indeed - that would be nice if it worked out - for us newbies - however - i like the craftiness of modifications -- excellent way to know what your working with.

... i'll be "Bach" ... ciao for now

Hi Gang,

I have Succesfully put a fan together and i have it spinning except i am experiencing new issues - it runs but no longer than 15 minutes - i am using 2 types of batteries (mecury free silver oxide and a Carbon type) both yield roughly the same results.
eg:
i use a full 9v silver oxide at source and a dead 9v silver oxide at charge - runs about 15 minutes (max) - drains source and charges output, roughly equivalent to the difference lost in the source.

- connect source and manually spin rotor - neon 110 VAC is barely visible - sometimes doesnt come on - it doesnt seem to change enough to identify the sweet spot.
- Source battery drops from 8.50 volts to 7.30 volts (at this point the fan stops)
- Charge battery raises from .70 volts to 3.30 volts (value obtained immedately after disconnection) - but starts dropping and stabalizes at about 1.15 - 1.30 volts - within a minute or two after disconnection.

Now for the wild results - are ya ready for this -
A very interesting thing happend - i have 4 types of Pots and one of my pots causes the system to hum a high pitch sound, immediately upon connection of source battery (no charge battery connected) (no movement on the fan!)
I adjust the pot and it intensifies the pitch's oscillating sounds - it sounds wavy, but increasing the resistance resulted in a more continuous pitch (less wavy (oscillating up and down high pitch sound)

heres the next weird thing:
i turn the fan slowly like it was a volume dial (very slowly) the pitch then raises in frequency (intensity - not the same as the pot adjustment - it is continuous high pitch that increases in intensity as the coils approach the equators of the rotor magnets and drops to a lower continous pitch as it approaches the magnets poles - i will confirm this tonight -
It sounds like this is a 2 part resonation setup - frequency adjustment - scalar and linear perhaps???

Thats not all -
the fan doesnt move
- the VAC is lit (britely - almost unnoticable flickering) - and the results (in eg above) are still obtained. - no fan motion - same results - all componants are healthy and active.

I will post a video tomorrow - but first i wanted to run this by you?


PLEASE HELP
Is there any way to get this running and stay running using my 9 volts?
I was under the impression that this was supposed to maintain/charge at the input (source battery) and increase charge at the output (charge battery)?



thanks again gang.
Sincerely,
D

hello again,

I managed to keep the apparatus charging but i had to manually adjust the pot to maintain the sweet spot - somehow need to tune the circuit to do this instead of me.

I have made the videos of what i had mentioned in my ealier post and i am currently editing the video as it was 3am while i was making it and i was not at my best and moving and talking slow LOL

Also, the coils in this fan are bifilar but the outer wraps are 180 degrees from each other and there were 3 posts - 2 of the posts had one individual attached wire each and on the 3rd post there was 2 wires connected to it - the 2 connected at one post had one outer wrap and one inner wrapped wire end - these 2 coils were 90 degrees apart.

Im going to follow your bifilar winding video and rewrap a fan accordingly - i will let you know when that is done. Also once my radio shack one comes in.

I hope to have this video link up after lunch.

D

Hello - here is the videos

http://www.youtube.com/user/DerrickJMAnderson

~DJMA~ Bedini PC Fan Circuit behavior - part1
~DJMA~ Bedini PC Fan Circuit behavior - part2
~DJMA~ Bedini PC Fan Circuit behavior - part3
~DJMA~ Bedini PC Fan Circuit behavior - part4
~DJMA~ Bedini PC Fan Circuit behavior - part5
~DJMA~ Bedini PC Fan Circuit behavior - part6

I believe they are worth watching as there is some interesting results - i will post better organized and cleaner video once my bro decides to return my video camera - that will be alot sweeter.

Please let me know what ya think.

Sincerely,
D

Hi Derrick,

You got it working, good to see. I havent got a chance to see your vids yet but heres some musings on your text.

You are running it on 9v batteries, which is fine, but not ideal. That particular style of battery (small disposable/non-rechargeable?) isnt well suited to any sort of lengthy discharge. 15 minutes sounds about right, especially if your amp draw is high. They arent going to charge too well either if they are alkaline. Dont get me wrong, it can be done, and you can get useful power out of batteries that would normally be thrown out.

The neon probably wont light on 9v for you, double up a couple of 9v in series for the front and back and run it on 18v for a second or so, you might see the neon then. Ultimately you want to get some different batteries, but if you must stick with 9v perhaps get a bunch of aa's nicads. Buy a little clip for 6 of them and theres your 9v battery. You just need to find the highest maH rated ones you can. What is your amp draw by the way?

The pot you put into the circuit that makes it oscillate without movement is most likely of higher resistance. Moving the rotor in this state you will notice the change of pitch when a magnet is in proximity of the core.The SG circuit can do that if resistance is too high on the base, it trips into self oscillation. This is desirable in other builds perhaps, but you may as well use your fan the way it was intended.

"I was under the impression that this was supposed to maintain/charge at the input (source battery) and increase charge at the output (charge battery)?"

John has never stated that the standard SG would maintain charge on the running battery while charging another.

hi ren,
thanks for the heads up and suggestions - i will give them a try

As for the motionles fan tests - the fan is not required to spin to achieve the same results

I managed to get all of the other fans working to - like you all stated earlier - its all in the geometry!

My apologize for the unedited videos - i watched them all the way through for the first time last night - OMG LOL - i do believe i should remove them as its more of funny waste of time for most to read - i dont sleep much and as you have probably noticed it hinders my powers of observation and activity.

I am rewriting this reply to correct what i had previously written - i do believe i will delete the above videos as they are to hard to follow and inacurate as they could ever be LOL - i havent laughed so hard in a long time, as i did watching my vids ... lol

Anyway, here is the correct rough data collected from the results (i will be re-doing this later and on video in a proper lab fashion):

Lab set up and proceedure:
1. Increase the resistance to bring the voltage spikes up and reduce fan speed to just about stalling point:
- Attach a multimeter on the Source (Input Power Battery)
- Start fan and Reduce the fan speed until the fan almost stalls
- Observe the multimeter, the neon bulb and the sound of the fan to assist you in determining the correct sweet spot as you
adjust the POT accordingly to stabalize the voltage reading on the multimeter
* The objective is to have the multimeter stay at a constant voltage and the fan at minimal speed - just before stalling - however, the voltage on the multimetere usually toggles up and down in increments of .01 volts (eg: a continous voltage of 7.60 volts that fluctuates between 7.59 - 7.60 - 7.61) - 7.60 being the preferred stable point.
- I have observed this condition to continue on without attention for about 20 -25 minutes before having to readjust the POT in the same fashion
(note: after time the range can be increased to a continuous 7.90)

- Attach the dead Charge Battery

2. At the point where attention is required (when the POT needs adjusting again) - you will need to increase the resistance yet again to stabelize the flow thus it will increase the intensity of the spikes and the fan will run even slower and a high pitch sound may start emitting from the fan.

- You should note that if the resistance is reduced it starts to drain the source power battery and the fan speed increases - we dont want this - do we?
Perhaps the next thing to do is to apply a voltage regulator at the POT to eliminate manual attention - any suggestions???


This ran on my circuit for 4 hours until i shut it off.
I will collect real Values, timing, vids and graphs over the next few weeks.

This Circuit currently consists of:
1 = Imhotep or simple bedini Schematic
2 = Diodes (High Signal Rectifiers) 6A10 (6Amp 1000 volt) - apparently it is the NTE 125 equivalent
1 = NPN Transistor NTE 130 (15amp 100v)
1 = 100 Ohm Resistor (brown black brown)
1 = POT Linear 5k Ohms (1/2 watt) [I believe we can increase the POT's OHMs]
1 = 12v bifilar wound PC Fan - but still not wound as it should be - strongly suggest rewinding the fan as imhotep and shiva posted
2 = 9 volt carbon batteries - 1 Fully charged (in this case 290 mAmps @ 9.25v) [brand new] and 1 dead or close to - in this case about .50 - .70 Volts left on it with no measurable amps.

Note - the power and trigger coil configuration is different for a variety of fan coil windings - i have a simple explanation for communicating this - I will post it when it is completed

In Conclusion, resistance must influence the power battery voltage drop to achieve a constant voltage reading - no drop no gain (meaning no voltage lost and no voltage gained in the power battery) - can fluctuate up and down between 0.01 volts - this is good - balance oscillation is very good

Results are from running with the power and charge batteries connected with the fan and the circuit:

A) Increased Resistance - at the POT:
* Charge Battery Highest Potential Voltage Gain
* Power Battery Stabalizes (require a voltage regulator at POT so it doesnt need manual attention ???)
= Fan Reduces Speed (almost stalls)
= Neon Bulb pulses very strong, fast and brite (about 3-4 per second - is my guestimation)
= Charge Battery increases in voltage and fulctuates between .01 and .02 volts per second
= Charge Battery gently climbs until it stabalizes and then charge about .01 volts from that point up - voltage never drops - always climbing by .01 volts and fluctuates

B) Decreased Resistance - at the POT:
* Charge Battery - Minimal Potential Voltage Gained - even lost
* Power Battery - Voltage Drains
= Fan runs very fast, thus dropping the power Batterys voltage and stops within 5 to 15 minutes, pending volts, resistance and amps
= Neon Bulb pulse slowly and not as brite - except when fan is about to stall
= Charge Battery Drops in voltage and drops about .01 and .02 volts per second

Final Measurements:
Dead Battery now 10mAmps @ 9.45 v
New Battery now 280 mAmps @ 8.25

Note: I used the charged battery to attempt to run the fan - it started and died as fast as it started - no more than a whole wopping 3 seconds - and the voltage is now at 7.45 v 10 mAmps - it has not recovered - i will recharge again and post the results.

Please note that these values are shaky as this was on a bread board. I hope this clears things up.

There is alot more but i will post the additional findings and acurate data as i collect them and in an organized fashion.

PS
Any suggestions on testing and multifilar windings is a good idea to suggest - as i am about to rewind some fans - any other requests/suggestions reagarding test setup ups, chronological experiments, data collection and testing etc is always welcome as well.

Sincerely,
D

hello again,
I apologize for the major amounts of ramblings that i have made on this post - i am getting it together.

I was was hoping to create a new post - PC Fan Circuit, Components and Calculations QA's

I thought a post for understanding the calculations behind the circuit is rather important at this point as some of the components are not easily obtained and knowing the technical "whats and whys, we are using them for".

I beleive it may help with, accurate data collection, identifying circuit/component improvements, maintaining controlled variables for circuit replication and data comparison - and especially, for electronic newbies like myself to get in on the action and learn it as well

But most of all to ... .

I have a few general questions i hope you may have time to answer.

RE: Imhotep bedini pc fan circuit - 9 volt battery input

What component/additions can i use to:

1. Automize voltage and also resistance regulation seperately?

2. Convert voltage to amps for both AC and DC Output?

3. I know my power supply values but how would i calculate the values/components for just this basic PC Fan circuit? as it is hard to obtain equivelant components around here.

4. I am familiar with the OHMs law formula and i have researched circuit formulas on the internet, but i am still confused as to how to calculate and add transistors, diodes, and Neon Bulbs into to this Circuit simply as possible.
Can anyone help me with this or at least get me off in the right direction?

Sincerely,
D

Hi, I'm new to this forum. I just built my first running Imhotep-Bendini circuit and I can't wait to experiment with it . I just got it running using a 50 ohm resistor in series with the base of the transistor, and I would like to know what you guys think would be a good resistance range for the audio potentiometer? After I figure that out, I can begin tuning it.

I will be using a 12 volt power source. The resistance for the fan coils is about 50 ohms. I'm using the 2N3055 transistor and the diodes are both 1N4007. Once I figure out how to make circuit diagrams, I'll post it. Right now, it's looking pretty much the same as the original schematic.

I use a 150 ohm wire wound pot.

I find that when i have adjusted the resistance to give the maximum voltage on the output and the battery begins to charge, i have to readjust the pot as the charge goes up to maintain maximum voltage.

I think this is because the internal resistance of a charging battery changes as it charges.

You will find that a fixed resistor is the best option in the long run. The pot can shift slightly as it heats up. I still use a pot, as I like to have that option. May I suggest a good quality 10 turn one, a little more expensive but much more accurate, especially in the 1k or lower range.

As the battery gets higher in voltage you may need to push more current to get it over the top (14+ volts). Generally this is a sign that your energizer isnt strong enough to charge the battery you are using. Dont get me wrong, it will still charge, but pushing it over the 13 or 14v mark may take some time.

I presently have this wheel running doing tests. It has an 18 amp hour battery as its run battery and two 12 amp hours in parallel as the charging batteries.

Primary battery is fully charged to 13v, charging batteries are drained to 12.3v

If I set it to draw 800ma I am within the 18amp hours C20 and I get good charging. However at the end of a 10 hour run the charging batteries are resting at the 12.6 mark, reaching up to 13.10 volts max while charging. Primary is discharged to 12.3v

If I set it to draw 1 amp, which is ever so slightly over its C20, and perform a 10 hour run my batteries reach 14.5v by the end of it, and my primary is still resting in the low 12.2v range.

If the first test it done for an extended run (15 hours or so) I may get the batteries a little higher, maybe in the 13.4's. It seems to me that the extra bit of current can make a big difference once the battery has reached 13v. I have seen it sitting on 13.20-13.21 for over an hour @ 800ma, the increase of 100ma to 900ma is enough to push it up to 13.60 within 2 minutes.

Its important to get to know how your battery behaves at its various states of charge. Repeated tests will give you the best indication of the capabilities of your battery and its habits.

Regards