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 Post subject: Frustration is in the details for beginners
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:41 am 
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I'm having a generally frustrating experience getting this thing together. There are many missing details in the videos and schematics that can stop a beginner in his or her tracks. I'll eventually try to itemize the problems I'm noticing once I'm in a better state of mind. I'm not pointing this out to be mean or because I don't like the intentions behind the creation of these things. On the contrary, it's amazing what you've done, if it works. And I wish I had my own to play with so I could be a part of it, but there are too many obstacles in the details that aren't discussed well enough. Just for starters,
In the videos, why such a lack of punctuation? I found myself getting lost in run-ons containing three sentences, but all capitalization of the beginning letters of each sentence was missing, as well as the periods to let you know one sentence had ended and the next had begun. In itself, no big deal, but enough to give someone a headache on top of their other headaches.
Why not specify exactly what which diodes to get (because beginners won't know) and exactly where in the circuit to put them? Maybe you know that it doesn't seem to make much difference exactly what diode to get, but a beginner doesn't know and needs some concrete instructions of what currently accepted standard part will work before they can go to Radio SHack and get the parts.
As for the windings, wow, see, a beginner gets a headache if they have to think about this without really good guidance. Most people don't really understand the workings of a motor. BUT, if they have something that does what this does, their gradual motivation to learn will naturally jump.
If this does what people say it does, and I still don't know because all I've seen are some inconclusive Youtube videos, you'll see a huge response. It all hinges on people getting their own working or not. And that hinges on clear detailed instructions for the layman with very little experience in any of this stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Frustration is in the details for beginners
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:35 am 
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Ask a question, without complaining as I know how frustrating it can be I am a begginner and I am sure that people will help.
Diode's are listed 4001,4007. to get and schematics are available just use a normal fan without winding it baby steps.
I have found the more you try and fail the more you learn and win.
Failing is part of winning, you really only lose when you give up.
You have to look past the punctuation and understand the meaning and try and comprehend what is happening and replicate.
Monkey see monkey do.
douundrstnd?

g.


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 Post subject: Re: Frustration is in the details for beginners
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:17 am 
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Some can teach to make an energy device. I can perhaps in time teach to make better tutorials, or make them myself if I can figure out how to do so while respecting everyone. But currently, I think I'll just identify what my current problem is that I'm hung up on.

Detour: which diode goes where? Answer, because I already figured this one out, I hope: The 1n4001 is the one that goes between the base and emitter of the transistor and the 1n4007 is the other one.

*Oops* the following update was wrong. Thee are 2 diodes, and I guess 1N4007 can be used just fine for both.
*Update* I was using the wrong schematic. The current schematic for this project has only one diode [*wrong! there are 2 diodes*] , and apparently 1n4007 is the one most people use for it. If I understand right, you can use about any diode in the 1n4001 to 1n4007 range.
Spread it around to save countless man-hours multiplied based on the number of people attempting this, or simply maybe by including such details on schematics/videos?

*Update*: Following problem solved by getting the current schematic.
problem: In the "Imhotep Fan Project part 2" video on Youtube, I quote, "make sure you observed all polarities of transistor and diodes solder base pin of transistor to center wiper of vol control solder positive of one set of coil wires to either side of vol control, negative to emitter on transmitter."
Edit: I had an old version of the schematic apparently, which conflicting with the above instructions. I just got the new one. Thanks, Shiva.
Maybe I should read more.

With every important detail, whether correct or incorrect or ommited, in a set of instructions, the results, good or bad, are multiplied by the number of people following those instructions. It seems to me this is all more important than a game, as is how we as individuals chose how we spend our time. That's why sometimes responsible people should give up on a goal when, at a certain point, they don't see that the results are worth pursuing further. I think it's best to help them attain the proof they need that this is worth pursuing, IF indeed it is.

Maybe I'll know once I get one working. I really want to. All I've seen so far are videos which almost seem to say what I'm hoping, but it might still be smoke and mirrors, or converting watts to volts or some such trickery. I want to believe..

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Last edited by superdude on Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Frustration is in the details for beginners
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:33 am 
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I understand your frustration,I was the same when I started, Its normal. I use 1N4007 diodes for both and it works fine.

If you find looking at the schematic confusing, look at some of the pictures here show-off-your-fans-and-circuits-t9.html and you will see which way the diode goes. Then look at the schematic and you will see what the schematic means

---->I---- this end is going to the positive of the charging battery

----DDDI---- going to the Positive again

e http://www.wingstech.com.ph/Content/ima ... 00-198.jpg and again

The confusing part is when they talk about anodes and cathodes as it is the cathode that points to the charging battery, I think of it as the positive flows into the anode and flows out of the cathode a bit like a one way valve.

When you learn more about electrical flow you will understand why, the truth is we are tought back to front. :?


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 Post subject: Re: Frustration is in the details for beginners
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:23 pm 
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Thanks for the help.
I have a pack of assorted diodes in the 1N400.. range and I need to look up what is different between them. For all I know, maybe any or all of them in this range could be used just fine as either diode in this cicuit. If I get back to this thread before anyone else with the answer, I'll make sure to tell what I learn about them. Thanks.

At this point, I'm in sort of a depressed procrastination to keep working on my circuit because I sense there are too many possible things I may have gotten wrong to keep it from minimally functioning. Primarily, the coils. I was lazy and didn't want to unwrap the two coil wires from the post, so I just broke the one off, then naturally, it was a little short to reach over there to where the new fourth post would be, so instead I just brought in my insulated wire, stripped its end, and soldered that to the end of the coil wire. It tested good for continuity. I had trouble making the post, so decided to just forget about creating the fourth post and simply route the wire to that approximate spot and then out of the fan assembly, restraining things with hotglue so they don't move.

So my uncertainty is:
1. Am I unknowingly sabotaging my circuit by taking the shortcut, not creating the fourth post, just running the wire instead to the approximate point where I would have made a fourth post but didn't, and then out to the circuit?
2. Assuming everything else in my circuit is sound, which I believe it is, will I be able to figure out which two fan coil wires should be positive and which two should be negative? (actually, based on what mbrownn has said, it sounds like I'll be able to figure out this one IF the thing above doesn't keep things from working)

On the other hand, just based on how ugly mine is so far, it should work :D

I probably don't deserve an answer on these, since I'm being lazy here and didn't do things according to procedures, but it would be much appreciated. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Frustration is in the details for beginners
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:21 pm 
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When I made my first fan I did exactly the same as you, yes you are sabotaging yourself because that wire will break in time.

1N4007 = 1000v
1N4004 = 400v

see data http://www.futurlec.com/Diodes/1N4004.shtml


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 Post subject: Re: Frustration is in the details for beginners
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:51 am 
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Thanks again mbrownn. And now that I'm back to working on it, it just hit me that the "new" schematic that I just got from this forum that seems to match the tutorial videos only has the single diode. I don't know where I got the other schematic from. It had 2 diodes and the positive and negatives coming from the fan were going to opposite spots in the circuit.

So.. after looking at that datasheet, and judging based on what's been said that either the 1n4001 or the 1n4007 work fine, it appears that any of the others between should do fine as well. That's weird to me, but okay. It seems like the one closer to the actual voltage passing through the circuit would be the best. Of course, I'm guessing people use the 1n4007 because those fast spikes can go rather high.. But either way, if it's good enough for all the other testers, it's good enough for me for my first one. I'll use the 1n4007. Thanks.

I looked at what batteries I have here. I guess all I have is 9-volt alkalines to play with. I hope these will be good for testing. The stronger one is at about 8.9 volts and powered the fan before I modified it, so should be good i think.

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 Post subject: Re: Frustration is in the details for beginners
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:15 am 
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Got it together, plugged in the batteries, gave it a spin...Nothing.
Tried switching the wires to try to figure out which should be positive and negative. No combination worked. This is what I was expecting. In the process, I managed to drain my source battery down a volt and the other is in bad shape as well.
I'll take what I've learned and start over. I need batteries. No money. :(

I was wondering.. I may get a clue which should be positive and negative if I could hook a battery to the fan directly? Like take the two wires I think should be positive and the two I think are negative and hook them to battery?

Also, I'm wondering.. just until I get it running, could a dc transformer work as the source?

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 Post subject: Re: Frustration is in the details for beginners
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:41 am 
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The two windings on the fan are identical. The first thing to do is to identify the wires to each coil, get one wire and check for continuity with the remaining three wires. One should have continuity.

This is the first coil so now you connect it as the power coil of the fan. The remaining two wires are the trigger coil, there should be continuity between them. Now connect these wires as the trigger and spin the fan with the resistance set as low as possible on the pot. If the fan does not run then reverse the polarity of the trigger coil and try again.

If the fan still does not run, reverse the polarity of the power coil and try again. If again it still does not run reverse the polarity of the trigger coil and try once more.

If all this fails then you must have another problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Frustration is in the details for beginners
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:10 am 
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I had hooked up each of the 4 coil "posts" in the fan to a different color wire. Yellow and black show 29 ohms resistance between each other and no continuity with the others. Blue and red show 29 ohms resistance between each other and no continuity with the others. So far, I think this is pretty much in line with what you just said. Proceeding carefully from here..

Thanks for explaining about the coils. So now I know that I'm designating one pair that has continuity with each other as the power + and - and the other pair of wires that have continuity with each other as the trigger coil + and - . I don't even know what "trigger coil" means at this point, but I'll study up on these things before long.
So I'm almost there I think. Now I'm just trying to identify where in the circuit these go.
I'm pretty sure the power positive is represented by the + to the upper right corner of the fan in the schematic, but I'm uncertain where the power - is. I tend to think maybe the upper left since that's the one with continuity with the negative of the source power when you follow it around the circuit. Yep. I'm almost certain that has to be right. So, proceeding on that assumption. Someone maybe correct me if I'm wrong?
Image

It's getting pretty late. I think I'll take a sleep break for now. Thanks for everyone's help. I'll see if I can dream about an Ironman suit with a computer fan spinning in the chest. :D

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