It is currently Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:10 pm



Welcome
Welcome to imhotep's labs

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. In addition, registered members also see less advertisements. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free, so please, join our community today!


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Neon bulb substitution?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:06 am
Posts: 63
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
Heads up for those as clueless as I am:
Radio Shack package, #275-001, states: 40A 12VDC,
but the relay states: 60A 14VDC.
Direct link to Imhoteps Radiant Oscillator video http://www.youtube.com/v/-wJqMDCsXus&hl

It's a 40 mile round trip to get one of those tiny neon bulbs.
Radio Shack did not have the neon bulbs.
The auto shop has a 4" x 1/8" neon tube that plugs into a cigarette lighter for $7 (ouch)
Would that work?
Can I use a gutted CFL?

The video is great, it's so simple, but I'm so clueless.
A schematic is Greek to me, I googled for "schematics for dummies"
and I'm up the creek here. :oops:

Direct link to schematic http://d1190995.domaincentral.com.au/image/obj173geo134pg6p5.png
Solid Dots (circles) mean a connection, correct?
I believe I understand the right side, but everything
on the left side of the schematic is in question.

Once I know how the circuit is wired,
I can begin to understand the schematic.
I don't need to be told everything below,
I'm sorry, just how the wires are connected.

Unknowns, to me, in the schematic:
Where in the schematic is the soldered wire from inside the relay?
Meaning of the Circled letters: B, W, P, Y and O
There are 4 contacts on the relay with 5 numbers,
so is one contact labeled both 87a and 30 ?
Meaning of the spring (curly Q) thing.
Meaning of the two arrows, one from 87A and one from 87.

Other than those things, I'm good to go :roll: !!!!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Neon bulb substitution?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:45 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:51 pm
Posts: 50
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 7 time
Where ever there are dots is a connection, as far as the neon is concerned there are no semi-conductors doing the switching (ie; the transitor that you have on your Imhotep fan) so you really dont need it. It is merely included as a visual indicator that the circuit is working and your getting radiant energy.

the 5th contact is omitted on the radio shack relay, that is a normally closed contact on that particular relay. all they omitted to do was to run a connector from that contact down through the bottom of the relay where you will see 87a. So what i did, is i pulled the cover off and soldered a wire to it and ran it down the bottom, if you can find the Bosch relay with 5 connectors you can use the 87a and not run the wire. If the blade connector is in that position. This is a very simple circuit. Dont overwhelm yourself. Ill break it down ;

you have a coil

you have a normally coil contact

you have a battery

when you the battery up across the normally closed contact to one side of the coil and the other side of the coil hooked to the positive side of the battery it energizes the coil and produces a magnetic field pulls the wiper down and breaks the contact off from its normally closed position.

When the connection is broken the coil collapses and you use the diode off terminal 30 to capture that energy through the diode to a battery. The spring pushes the contact back up to its normally closed position and the process starts all over again. The letters i used in the schematic where just a color indication of the wires I used. If you look on the case it will show you the numbers of the coil contacts and the normally open and normally closed contacts and the wiper contacts. You should have no problem fiqureing it out.

If you still have questions please post a schematic with the numbers and the way you wired it to the battery dont worry about the neon if you dont want to use one. You will know if its working if the charge battery goes up in voltage.

BTW The anode of the diode goes to the number 30 contact and the cathode (band side) goes to the positive of the charge battery. And the negative of the charge battery goes to the positive of the source battery. good luck

_________________
Image
http://www.imhotepslab.com Image

please visit the link above to visit the website


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Neon bulb substitution?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:06 am
Posts: 63
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
Ok, below is an image of what I'm understanding
Non-schematic ... I'm still learning my ABCs .. don't read them or write them.

Image

after I downloaded lidmotor's video, expanded the display window and stopped the video
I noticed his wiring didn't use contact 87. I was hung up on the "make 4 female
blade connectors" and I was trying to make contact 87 "fit" somewhere.
I thought I was missing something.

:o

I think I'm ok now ... am I ok?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Neon bulb substitution?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:00 pm
Posts: 2
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
I wired my relay just like in the above picture.
It works but I cant get my neon to light up.
And when I hook it up to a cap I can only put about 50v in a cap.
Is the above picture right ir is it missing someting?

Thank You.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Neon bulb substitution?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:06 am
Posts: 63
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
slayer007 wrote:
I wired my relay just like in the above picture.
It works but I cant get my neon to light up.
And when I hook it up to a cap I can only put about 50v in a cap.
Is the above picture right ir is it missing someting?

Thank You.

Let me restate: I can't read schematics.
I think, the light does not light up if the charge battery is connected.
So if that's your only problem, then you are OK.

I do believe the above non-schematic is valid.
I do not have a neon bulb in my circuit and it is
charging a battery and making a lots of noise.

Note: if the tone goes much higher and stays there, a connection came loose.
You can disconnect like the positive off the charge battery to hear what I mean.

Wild guesses:
Are you using a neon bulb 110-120v ? if not, remove the bulb.
Another possible problem could be the wire inside the relay is ah, touching other contacts?
Is your source battery at least 12 volts?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Neon bulb substitution?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:00 pm
Posts: 2
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
When its not hooked up to anything the neon will not light up.
Nothing loose or shorting out.
It puts out a little power but nothing like what I seen in the videos.
The neon I'm using is 85v I think.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Neon bulb substitution?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:06 am
Posts: 63
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
slayer007 wrote:
When its not hooked up to anything the neon will not light up.
Nothing loose or shorting out.
It puts out a little power but nothing like what I seen in the videos.
The neon I'm using is 85v I think.


Are you using the Radio Shack relay 275-001?
I think the relay must have an iron core to work... maybe?
What do you mean by "little power".

I read only 8.17 volts on my charge battery, while charging,
but my charge battery was below 4 volts before I stated charging.

The only thing left that could be wrong is reversed diode.
Try removing the Bulb, since you are unsure about it.

NOTE: beside the "tone" changing. meter readings are "wild"
if there is a loose connection. Remember, I do not have a neon
bulb to "pick-up-slack" if a connection on the battery comes loose.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Neon bulb substitution?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:59 pm
Posts: 11
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
Vortex wrote:
Heads up for those as clueless as I am:
Can I use a gutted CFL?

Unknowns, to me, in the schematic:
There are 4 contacts on the relay with 5 numbers,
so is one contact labeled both 87a and 30 ?
Meaning of the spring (curly Q) thing.
Meaning of the two arrows, one from 87A and one from 87.

Other than those things, I'm good to go :roll: !!!!


Can I use a gutted CFL?
I am quite sure that you can although it is big, clumsy and easier to break than a small neon bulb and may not be very bright, but you can't do any damage trying it.

Let me clear some silly confusion here over getting Neon bulbs.

Most people have real difficulty locating them, but you won't believe how EASY they really are to get!

Nearly every kettle, washing machine, vacuum cleaner and dozens more household items, usually have a neon bulb to indicate when the machine, kettle etc is ON. So look in the scrap bins etc for those items and recover the free neon bulbs - I just love FREE :D

Still got probs? Okay, look for hosehold switches that are fitted to electric light, electric cooker, shower switches etc., which have a neon bulb contained. Don't buy new, ask your local electrician for some old ones when he rewires homes!

You should have no trouble getting them and they usually have good high voltage insulation covering the wires and a resistor fitted in one, [very tiny]. Because these neons are designed to be always illuminated when the device is on, the resistor simply reduces the current and helps the neon last for thousands of hours of continued use. You can remove the resistor for a brighter light, but try it first, you may be quite happy to leave it ;)

Still stuck? I can't believe it... okay, one last try. Ever seen a screwdriver mains tester? The one you touch at the end and a glow inside the screwdriver indicates whether the item you're testing is live or not? What do you think does the GLOWING... sorry, NO MORE CLUES :D

Unknowns, to me, in the schematic:
A link was provided by Agongon in Energetic Forum, which explains very clearly what all the contact numbers are and what each one does. 5-pin Bosch 12vdc relay. http://www.arnnworx.com/lighting.htm

Heads up for those as clueless as I am:

Vortex, it may help if you think on this...

with the Bedini/Imhotep fan motor/energizer, you have trigger coils and power coils, exactly the same with the Bedini schoolgirl motor, okay? The trigger coil is energised by the moving magnet and this generates a small voltage in mA, [milliamps]. This tiny voltage goes to the Base connection on the transistor. If there is enough of this tiny voltage, the transistor switches ON and then a much larger current can flow through the Emitter to the Collector and this larger current goes to the power coil which then powers the motor to run continuosly.

Now the RELAY does EXACTLY the same work as the transistor, but in the reverse way.


Let me explain how.

A small voltage is applied to the single internal relay coil, [through the contacts 85 + 86]
This energises the coil and it becomes a magnet which then attracts a pivoted metal arm/lever [contact 30].
This lever is the actual switch and simply switches 'on' and 'off' between two other seperate contacts [87 + 87A].
When ON, a much larger current [40 amps], can then flow through the purpose designed, heavy duty relay contact 87.
When the small current to the relay coil is dis-connected, the switch lever returns to it's Normal position, which is contact 87A.

So, the real purpose of a relay of this type is to use a small current to switch a much heavier current. [SAME AS THE TRANSISTOR!]

THAT IS WHY YOUR CAR HAS ONE VERY HEAVY DUTY RELAY.

Can you guess what it is?

Confusingly, it is usually called a starter-solenoid :?
When you turn on the ignition and turn the key, a 12v current is fed to this solenoid/relay. This current energizes the coil inside which becomes a powerful magnet. This magnet then switches ON and the VERY Heavy Duty contacts allow DIRECT CONTACT TO YOUR CAR BATTERY AND STARTER MOTOR.

This site explains it well ~ http://www.samarins.com/glossary/starter.html

I hope this helps to clarify things and remove confusion?

Best wishes to ALL,
By Jove!

_________________
"I say that if a TEN year old can do this and WIN, what the **** is wrong with the whole World?"

~ John Bedini ~ 8 Mar 2000 - http://www.keelynet.com/bedmot/bedmot.htm


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Neon bulb substitution?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:06 am
Posts: 63
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
This is my 1st successful project.
I'm up and charging an old car battery for the past 24 hours now.

It's pretty hard to mess up wiring 3 parts together
and only 2 if you leave out the neon, which isn't required.
Past failure: wiring a single LED to a battery. I couldn't get that to work.
More info on failure: It took me more than one hour to FORCE a wire to
be soldered to the relay.. I'm thinking I'm lacking enough flux or a
flat soldering tip, not a pointed tip?

I have a mind which can do a project, I just lack the
knowledge and experience to complete it.

byjoveoldchap wrote:

Let me clear some silly confusion here over getting Neon bulbs.

Most people have real difficulty locating them, but you won't believe how EASY they really are to get!

Nearly every kettle, washing machine, vacuum cleaner and dozens more household items, usually have a neon bulb to indicate when the machine, kettle etc is ON. So look in the scrap bins etc for those items and recover the free neon bulbs - I just love FREE :D

Still got probs? Okay, look for hosehold switches that are fitted to electric light, electric cooker, shower switches etc., which have a neon bulb contained. Don't buy new, ask your local electrician for some old ones when he rewires homes!

You should have no trouble getting them and they usually have good high voltage insulation covering the wires and a resistor fitted in one, [very tiny]. Because these neons are designed to be always illuminated when the device is on, the resistor simply reduces the current and helps the neon last for thousands of hours of continued use. You can remove the resistor for a brighter light, but try it first, you may be quite happy to leave it ;)

Still stuck? I can't believe it... okay, one last try. Ever seen a screwdriver mains tester? The one you touch at the end and a glow inside the screwdriver indicates whether the item you're testing is live or not? What do you think does the GLOWING... sorry, NO MORE CLUES :D

Great stuff, thanks. Hopefully I can put together a "How-To" for the Clueless
like me and post that sometime soon.
Those ScrewDriver Mains Testers I've seen at the $1 stores. I've found a substitution
which I don't know the name of. It came from an unfinished project which I lacked information
to finish. It's less than 1" tube with two parallel rods in it, it lights up orange.

Quote:
Unknowns, to me, in the schematic:
A link was provided by Agongon in Energetic Forum, which explains very clearly what all the contact numbers are and what each one does. 5-pin Bosch 12vdc relay. http://www.arnnworx.com/lighting.htm

Yes I should learn how relays work. I will get to that point.
But knowing how a gasoline engine works does not allow one to use water as fuel.
Knowing how the relay works would give me some insight but still did not
understand how the wiring was wired in this project.
I did not know, then, that the relay was being used in the "normal" way
a relay is used. I did not know contact 87 was not being used and was confused
by the video instruction to make 4 contractors, when only 3 are required.

Quote:
Vortex, it may help if you think on this...

with the Bedini/Imhotep fan motor/energizer, you have trigger coils and power coils, exactly the same with the Bedini schoolgirl motor, okay? The trigger coil is energised by the moving magnet and this generates a small voltage in mA, [milliamps]. This tiny voltage goes to the Base connection on the transistor. If there is enough of this tiny voltage, the transistor switches ON and then a much larger current can flow through the Emitter to the Collector and this larger current goes to the power coil which then powers the motor to run continuosly.



In a round-about way I understand what is going on, but the details are
fuzzy or totally unknown.
It is rare that one studies all the rules and how to play before
making the choice to "give it a go".
Like most anything new. One tries it, then one determines
I wish to continue doing this ..
so I better find out what the "rules" are and how to "play" .

Quote:
Now the RELAY does EXACTLY the same work as the transistor, but in the reverse way.


I'll tuck this info away for when I more deeply understand a relay or a transistor. AH..

Quote:
Let me explain how.

A small voltage is applied to the single internal relay coil, [through the contacts 85 + 86]
This energises the coil and it becomes a magnet which then attracts a pivoted metal arm/lever [contact 30].
This lever is the actual switch and simply switches 'on' and 'off' between two other seperate contacts [87 + 87A].
When ON, a much larger current [40 amps], can then flow through the purpose designed, heavy duty relay contact 87.
When the small current to the relay coil is dis-connected, the switch lever returns to it's Normal position, which is contact 87A.

So, the real purpose of a relay of this type is to use a small current to switch a much heavier current. [SAME AS THE TRANSISTOR!]

Every little bit helps. I didn't know a transistor was like a relay.
Every relationship builds upon another until understanding is archived.
and Thank you.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Neon bulb substitution?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:59 pm
Posts: 11
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
Vortex wrote:
This is my 1st successful project.
I'm up and charging an old car battery for the past 24 hours now.

CONGRATULATIONS !
Quote:
It's pretty hard to mess up wiring 3 parts together
and only 2 if you leave out the neon, which isn't required.
Past failure: wiring a single LED to a battery. I couldn't get that to work.

Wrong way round? It is a diode so will only work one way.
Quote:
More info on failure: It took me more than one hour to FORCE a wire to
be soldered to the relay.. I'm thinking I'm lacking enough flux or a
flat soldering tip, not a pointed tip?

Or not enough heat?
Quote:
I have a mind which can do a project, I just lack the
knowledge and experience to complete it.

Well, you managed this one, so you're off to a good start.

Quote:
I've found a substitution
which I don't know the name of. It came from an unfinished project which I lacked information
to finish. It's less than 1" tube with two parallel rods in it, it lights up orange.

Thats it !
Quote:
Knowing how the relay works would give me some insight but still did not
understand how the wiring was wired in this project.
I did not know, then, that the relay was being used in the "normal" way
a relay is used. I did not know contact 87 was not being used and was confused
by the video instruction to make 4 contractors, when only 3 are required.

Yes, they do thing like that to confuse us all :D
Quote:
So, the real purpose of a relay of this type is to use a small current to switch a much heavier current. [SAME AS THE TRANSISTOR!]

Every little bit helps. I didn't know a transistor was like a relay.

Hey, neither did I untilo I was explaining it to you!
Quote:
Every relationship builds upon another until understanding is archived.
and Thank you.

You're welcome,
By Jove!

_________________
"I say that if a TEN year old can do this and WIN, what the **** is wrong with the whole World?"

~ John Bedini ~ 8 Mar 2000 - http://www.keelynet.com/bedmot/bedmot.htm


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
suspicion-preferred