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 Post subject: Battery Questions_Technical Fine Points
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:36 am 
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On the forum it is said: "Don't be afraid to ask these questions openly on the forum. Many others would be able to contribute answers to your questions." Besides being a 'newbie' I know that I know nothing about 'radiant eneegy' or scalar electricity is as it is also called, and wish to be extremely meticulous in asking questions-one omitted or superflous minor detail could mean failure-assume nothing&question everything.

The batteries in question will be used as a permanent rechargable via Imhotep's radiant oscillator power supply for experiments with radiant energy or 'scalar' electricity and will NOT be used in circuits with'"ordinary" electricity.



*We ordered 4 lead acid sealed liquid electrolyte Batteries for these experiments through Radio Shack. They have larger sizes in amps/hr, such as shown here on Imhoteo's pages. Part #23-9080, 12 volt 1.3 Amp/hour sealed Lead acid battery(has liquid electrolyte). These batteries, & all parts mentioned can be seen at http://www.radioshack.com. They have a onsite phone number where you can order these and other parts sent by UPS within the USA. On Imhoteps' site here in another posting, we gave an international phone number in Texas where you can order these and other parts from anywhere in the world, sent by Fedex Airmail, payable by Visa or Mastercard. A standardized, common siource of parts makes experimenting easier-you can even order the identical auto relay that Imhotep uses for the radiant oscillator from Radio Shack!





*How long approximately should I leave discharge bulb accross terminals? In the Radio Shack Catalogue, there is #272-1163,6V 650mA Krypton Lamp.Cost: $1.79 Two of these in series gives 12v @ 650ma for a 'load' to discharge the battery. If I 'measure' the amount of discharge,after disconnecting the bulb/load should I take a time-in minutes-to let the battery "settle" so I can get an accurate reading putting the volt meter electrodes accross the terminals?


*Should I use an old fashioned VOM(Volt Ohm Meter) to measure the voltages accross the sealed lead acid batteries when checking for charge. Here, the measured voltage engages the mechanical movement of the meter directly through perhaps a resistor network to set for full scale-there is no 'regular'in meter usually 9 volt DC battery or digital electric circuitry as is the case in a modern digital voltmeter. i had talked with John Bedini some years ago, and he said to keep all 'regular' electricity away from circuits-including batteries-that are charged with 'scalar"
electricity alternatively called "radiant energy". Like fire& water, "scalar" and "regular" everyday electricity DONT mix, according to John. An 'old time' VOM-volt meter measuring part- is just a mechanical meter movement & resistors-that is it.




*What voltage should I bring these 12v, 1.3Ah batteries down to, voltage measured accross the + and - terminals (with a VOM_NOT digital meter) that is the low or discharge point of a cycle? As said in the page, I assume the 'high' point after charge is @14.4-14.8volts. If this is the 'high' point of the charge cycle, what will be the "low" point in volts to safely discharge the sealed lead acid battery?

Then, when I have reached this 'low' voltage, I plug the battery in to the Imhotep Radiant Oscillator, which I prefer to use as a beginner or newbie because of the simplicity of its construction. I let the battery 'charge' in the radiant oscillator until it reaches @14.4 to 14.8 volts, this is one charge cycle. I repeat this eight or nine times? What tells me that I have repeated "enough" times or charge cycles in an individual battery? I am going to be using these batteries as a source of 'scalar' electricity or "radiant energy", and plan to NEVER charge them again with 'regular'
electricity; they are all brand new as sent to me by Radio Shack.


*How much time do I leave these 12v 1.3AH sealed liquid lead cells on charge using the Imhotep radiant oscillator for a charge? Does the Imhotep radiant oscillator "self regulate", or must i periodically check the voltage across this battery? What period if necessary to check the voltage across the +,- terminals: three/four hours, every hour? Do I have to turn the Imhoptep radiant energy charger off when making these voltage measurements? If I have to turn it off, must i wait for the battery to 'settle' before making an accurate measurement? HOw long in minutes, if this is important?



*What size light bulb-12v-how many amps should I use for a 'load test' after charging? How does this relate to the stated amp/hr-here in my case 1.3AH that is marked on the case of the cell?


I wish to use the Imhotep radiant oscillator to convert to radiant energy:
*AAA 1.2v,700milliamp/hour
*What would be the safe voltage to discharge the AAA down to for a charge cycle?
*Can I use a light bulb to discharge this battery, how many milliampres?

*What is the maximum voltage I want to 'see' measuring across +,- leads of this AAA battery?
*How often should I measure the charging voltage accross the +,- terminals: hourly, every 2 hours, every four hours, or some other time period?
* What size load resistor do you suggest accross the AAA battery to discharge it as part of the charge/discharge cycle? Radio Shack Mineature Lamp #272-1139,1.5volts, 25milliampres. Cost: $1.49 How many hours to leave this lamp across the +,- terminals of the AAA Battery to get 'down'voltage part of charge/discharge cycle with Imhotep Radiant Oscillator? Oscillator fed from 12v Lead Acid battery-this is rechargable from wall & has cigarette lighter style 12V out terminal, is normally used to give 'jump start' to car.(Use this as my shop power supply)

*and 1.2 volt AA 2450mAh battery.
*What would be the safe voltage to discharge the AA down for a charge cycle?
*How often should I measure the charging voltage across the +,- terminals:
hourly, every 2 hours, every 4 hours, or some other time period?
*What size load resistor do you suggest across the AA battery to discharge it as part of the charge/discharge cycle? Radio Shack:272-1139, 1.5 Volts,25milliampres. Cost: $1.49. How many hours to leave this lamp across the +,- terminals of the AA battery to get 'down'voltage part of charge/discharge cycle with Imhotep radiant oscillator? Oscilator fed from 12v Lead Acid battery-this is rechargable from wall & has cigarette lighter style 12V out terminal, is normally used to give 'jump start' to car- portable small unit purchased from auto parts shop.(Use this as my shop power supply)






It is said on the website battery section here:(quoted)
Connect your meter to the + and - of the charging battery.


"...I find it easier to tell when lead acid batteries are fully charged, when a 12v battery has reached 14.4 to 14.8v it is fully charged just the same as on your car. You will see a little off-gassing too.What is the 'full' charging voltage for 1.2V?..."

What is the "C20" rate for charge and discharge of a lead acid battery? Of a nicad or nickle metal hydride battery?

Does 'cycling' mean use radiant energy charger to charge up to max, then discharge down to (how many?) volts. Check voltage, then put radiant energy charger on again for another 'cycle'?

Can I use a Digital Volt Meter to reliably measure the charge on a lead acid

battery when using the Imhotep Radiant Oscillator Se

I want to use batteries ONLY for radiant energy experiments. How lmany times should

I charge/discharge lead acid battery before it "takes' radiant charge? Battery

will NEVER be charged with 'regular' electricity again, will use it as a source of

"radiant" energy.

Using Imhotep's Radiant Oscillator,how high should I be able to bring the charge to

my sealed 12V 1.3AH Battery? M. Brown says 13.4Volts. Should I wait three or four

minutes after disconnecting the battery to measure the charge given to the battery

f

What will be the time off the radiant energy charger when the 12v 1.2AH battery

finally "settles" to? 12.5 Volts?

Respectfully:

Felis Catus


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 Post subject: Re: Battery Questions_Technical Fine Points
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:39 am 
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Oh so many questions hehe

I will do my best to answer the ones that I can.

First no two batteries are the same even if they are the same brand and rating, there will be small differences in capacity and voltage.

Basic rules

Charge your battery conventionally to find its fully charged standing voltage, for lead acid that is normally 12.7, lead calcium will be a little higher. Usually lead calcium are marked with CA or CCA on the model number of the battery, Do not mistake this with CCA when referring to the capacity as this means Cold Cranking Amps and is measured in amps.

When discharging the battery do not take the voltage down more than 10% of the fully charged standing voltage. So if the standing voltage of a fully charged battery is is 12.7, do not discharge that battery below 11.43 standing voltage. This is the total usable range of the battery and discharging the battery further will only shorten the life of the battery and eventually kill it.

Charging voltage is around 14.4 volts for lead acid and 14.8 for lead calcium

Battery conditioning

On the first charge on the radiant charger push the voltage of the battery as high as it will go, this could be in the range from 14.5v to 15.5v, on subsequent charges use the recommended charging voltage. ie when the battery voltage of a lead acid tops 14.4v it is fully charged. Charge and then discharge the battery 6 to 10 times now the battery should be conditioned

Charge/discharge rate

Measure the amount of amps consumed by your radiant charger, Ideally it would be 1/20th of the amp hour rating of your battery for the most efficient charge and maximum battery life. I have used input amps as high as 1/5th of the amp hour rating but there are disadvantages. The same goes for discharging. This is known as the C20 charge discharge rate. Charging at too high a rate can/will result in heat, loss of electrolyte and breaking up of the plates as well as a fluffy charge (a battery that appears charged but has no capacity) Discharging at too high a rate will result in heat, loss of electrolyte and damage, even melting, of the plates.

A deep cycle battery can be cycled more than 1000 times if matched to the load at a C20 charge/discharge rate, a car battery of the same amp hour rating would only last around 200 cycles in the same conditions. You will notice that the deep cycle battery is much larger than a car battery of the same capacity. These small lead acid batteries are neither a starter battery nor a deep cycle battery but are a compromise between the two so the life will be somewhere between the two.

I use car batteries as they are cheap and plentiful, they are capable of taking high charge and discharge rates but only for short periods of time and only for a fraction of their capacity. In truth, not only that the batteries would last longer but it would be cheaper to use deep cycle batteries.

Batteries like to have time to do their work. A perfectly good battery will measurably have much less capacity if it is discharged fast and the same goes for charging.

Using a 1.3Ah battery a 65ma bulb would be ideal as this would last about 20 hours a 650ma bulb will only last 2 hours theoretically but in reality it would be less as the battery capacity reduces with higher loads. It is a common mistake to use too small a battery for continuous cycling operations.

For charging I would use the simple relay or fan and not the oscillators using the ignition coil for such a small battery.

Digital meters have their problems in the fact that they give false readings with pulsed DC. Analogue (old fashioned) meters give an average reading and cannot respond to fast changes in voltage or current, this makes analogue good for measuring the amps. Digital are more accurate and easier to use as well as very cheap so I use digital for most voltage readings but if I get an unexpected result I will check it with an analogue meter or oscilloscope. The oscilloscope is the only instrument we have for getting accurate readings of the radiant spike. Remember we cannot measure the amps of radiant.

The best way to test the capacity of a battery is to discharge it at its C20 discharge rate and time how long it takes to discharge. It should be 20 hours but as I said before no two batteries are the same and the time will vary.

I have no experience with charging and discharging AAA batteries but I would imagine the rules are the same taking into account the voltage and charge discharge rates.

When I charged AA batteries I charged four of them simultaneously in parallel and it took 6 hours with my fan. These were 1800mah cels and if I remember correctly I saw 1.96v across them when charging. The input to the fan was 12v 80ma. again the time of charge is related to the input so when using batteries of a different voltage to the input you either have to calculate the watts in to the charger compared to the watts required to charge the battery or do it by trial and error. These chargers have a near 1 to 1 charge ratio.

As a guide, C20 is the amphour rating divided by 20

A cycle is to discharge then recharge.

You can use a digital volt meter to measure the voltage while charging but if it is close to an Imhotep radiant oscillator it may give strange readings even going into 1000's of volts which are not true.

The battery will take the radiant as soon as you connect it but during the conditioning period the battery will change its structure to fine grains making it have better capacity and charge a little faster. I you put this battery on a normal charger these benefits will soon be lost.

The energy that comes out of the battery is normal electricity as the battery converts the radiant to normal electricity. If you use negative radiant this is not necessarily true but as a beginner I suggest sticking with the positive for now.

I think you will see at least 14.4v on your battery when charging, leave it at least half an hour to find the standing voltage. When I quoted 13.4v I think I was talking of a specific case bearing in mind I have always used old batteries. Batteries that are getting low on electrolyte sometimes display higher standing voltage as the acid is more concentrated. No two batteries are the same.


From your battery spec sheet

Your 20 hour rate is 0.06A or 60mA giving 1.3 amphours
5 hour is 0.208A giving 1.04 amphours
1 hour is 0.780 giving 0.780 amphours

So approximately C20 is 0.06A, C5 is 0.208A and C1 is 0.780A. This tells you that the amphour rating is a function of load

It then states that your C1 is actually 1.3A at 0.65 amphours, very confusing yes?

The first graph shows a standing voltage of a little over 13v under little or no load, so it may be a lead calcium battery, and measured discharges under load to 11v. This is a deep discharge and I would not work the battery so hard. At a 1.3 amp discharge the battery is down to 11v in less than 30mins under load, of course the voltage will rise again once the load has been removed.

Battery manufacturers give measurements that make their battery sound good so that you will buy them, take it with a pinch of salt. I would use 780mA as the c1 rate

Try to use your batteries at around C20 and they will last many years/cycles at heavier rates that life will be much shorter.


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 Post subject: Re: Battery Questions_Technical Fine Points
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:37 am 
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To add.

I think the battery mentioned in the link is gel based. So it is the wrong battery to use for radiant experiment. You need a battery where you can refill the water!

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index ... Id=2103438


Your sealed lead acid is not suitable battery for observing COP>1. Your nimh or nicad will perform better.


I prefer measuring battery voltage with digital meter.

Sealed lead acid battery tend to become a capacitor after a while, it have high standby voltage, but will have large voltage drop upon load. My solution is to use FWBR for radiant recovery to allow mix of normal and radiant current. I use the FRBW in series with capacitor to prevent too many normal current charging.


Important:
If you detect heat during 1 hour of charging then your circuit do not produce radiant. Correct your circuit.


I use the same circuit for 1000mAh AA or 7Ah 12V. 12V will get full in hour but I still never get serious heat on AA battery even if I charge it more than two hour.

On SLA, you will destroy your battery if you overcharge because you can not replenish the released hydrogen bubbling released when the cell is fully charged. On refillable lead acid, you just need to add distilled water.

Using lead acid, my charger will do bubbles right from the start. It will goes more when the battery gets full. and it will still bubble even after you disconnect the power.


Measure standby voltage after an hour.


I charge my AA nicad up to 1.65V during charging. It goes to 1.35V after an hour. Some battery manufacturer say it is safe to store nimh in a dead short condition for months.

If your circuit can produce 400mA measured in series with the battery, you should check it every 15 minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: Battery Questions_Technical Fine Points
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:38 am 
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Another thing. I usually stop charging when my AA battery get warm, rarely use meter. Just take a look the voltage today and it is charging at 3.6 V (1.8 V each). A minute after power disconnected read 2.8 V (1.4 V each).


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