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 Post subject: Re: Rotary attraction motor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:21 am 
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Ok. I will look forward for your result.

I think the load is only a secondary part and should never be included in calculation.

Since what being advertised is a motor that do not consume more with mechanical load. And the motor consume less without electrical load. I think the true test of a no BEMF motor is to run it without electrical load and see how the current consumption when mechanically loaded.

How much amp your coil would need continuously?


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 Post subject: Re: Rotary attraction motor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:54 am 
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On 1 coil at 1 pulse per rev it will be 20A pulses but with a 10% duty cycle this will average out at 2A. If there is BEMF then the amp draw will be lower as it would oppose the current flow.

If the BEMF could be made to work for us instead of against us the effect would be increased torque and double the amp flow in the coil. Half would be in the supply circuit and half in the recovery circuit, less the losses. I think what Peter was hoping is that we would get an effective 20A pulse for 20% duty cycle for an input of 20A at 10% duty, less losses.

My motor theoretically would be 24W, but if Peter was right then the mechanical power would be 48w less losses. Overunity.

This obviously did not happen with Peters test or he would have posted the figures. So we have to ask why. Is it the theory that is wrong or is there something else going on in the motor we haven’t thought of. I believe there is something else going on but cannot attempt to pinpoint it without all the figures.

In Jetijs test we have more figures but it was known that he had magnetic retention in his motor which would confuse the issue.

So what I need to do is get the torque figures for my motor and determine if there are eddy currents in my motor. To determine if the eddy currents are consuming the energy all we have to do is split one side of the stator and measure potential and amps across this split. The down side to this is we introduce an air gap for the magnetic flux and this will reduce torque. By designing the stator so that it is two separate magnetic circuits and that flux does not need to cross the split, we can do this without torque loss. The method is to use an x rotor and a split case.

The magnetic circuit would go from the coil through the air gap to the rotor, make a right angle turn, go out of the rotor, across the air gap and return to the same segment of the stator that it came from. This is then repeated in the second half of the motor.

I believe that this may be the answer to one of Peter’s problems and may be part of the design of the Lockridge device.

Now you have it. Do you see a problem with the theory?


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 Post subject: Re: Rotary attraction motor
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:31 am 
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mbrownn wrote:
On 1 coil at 1 pulse per rev it will be 20A pulses but with a 10% duty cycle this will average out at 2A. If there is BEMF then the amp draw will be lower as it would oppose the current flow.
I wonder if it is that simple. Stingo duty cycle is one percent but still consume around the same as 50% joule thief.


mbrownn wrote:
This obviously did not happen with Peters test or he would have posted the figures. So we have to ask why. Is it the theory that is wrong or is there something else going on in the motor we haven’t thought of. I believe there is something else going on but cannot attempt to pinpoint it without all the figures.
Do you know what Peter promise to the people who replicate rotary attraction motor? What is the goal? Anyone reach it?

I don't follow Peter Lindemann much.

mbrownn wrote:
Now you have it. Do you see a problem with the theory?
Why do you think Eddy current play a big role? Not the backward current caused by changing flux?

Which one do you think better for the unpowered coil part in side a moving magnetic flux, shorted or open? Or powered in reverse by something?


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 Post subject: Re: Rotary attraction motor
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:05 pm 
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No its not that simple as inductance plays a role too but my coils will have a relatively low inductance so it should not be a big influence on amp draw.

I don’t think Peter offered anything other than a basic theory to test, just the same as I have offered you. He is a very well respected free energy researcher and so many people will try what he proposes.

I understand much of what Peter says and understand his more conventional approach and why it’s a little different to John Bedini. I am not saying one is right and the other is wrong, I think they are both right. On the forum Peter chooses who he wants to talk to (he has never spoke to me), and I understand that too

Back to the motor. A motor frame with coils is just the same as a transformer, its laminations are designed to prevent eddy currents in one plane and allow them in another. Where they are allowed it may be that they assist a conventional motor but we are not running these motors conventionally.

I am convinced that we are inducing low voltage, high ampere currents around the frame. I am not sure of the level of interaction with the stator or the BEMF so I wish to test it. If the transformer effect of the frame was 100% efficient and the resistance was zero we would get exactly the same amount of flux from the frame as we do the coil but in a different plane.

Flux is given by ampere turns, my coil has 80 turns at 20 amps my frame has 1 turn so that would be 1600 amps all be it at a minute voltage because the frame is shorted. The Gray motor had laminations in the opposite plane and they were not connected to make a circuit. I don’t know enough about motors to predict what is happening so again, I need to test it.

Closed loops moving in magnetic fields generate amps and therefore drag. An open loop cannot generate amps but a voltage potential builds up and this will create drag too but usually it is much smaller. Which is better depends upon what you are trying to do. For us it is better not to have it at all.

A universal motor has powered coils giving higher torque but you still have BEMF so as speed increases torque drops. If you reverse the flow the motor locks up.


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 Post subject: Re: Rotary attraction motor
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:27 am 
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I see. I get the transformer analogy. thanks :).


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 Post subject: Re: Rotary attraction motor
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:46 pm 
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While studying this I think I have stumbled into the solution to the rotary magnetic wankel engine. Ill create a thread for it and you can give me your thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: Rotary attraction motor
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:04 am 
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I have just run my first test and haven’t been able to get a reliable amp reading as yet but here is the info I did get.

At 12.79v (car Battery) I got 52 rpm on one coil it could barely run.

On 2 coils 120 rpm

3 coils 130 rpm

4 coils 66 rpm

The polarities were swapped to give the best results, the best condition being opposite coils producing opposite poles.

When collecting the kickback the motor slowed a little both with the battery and the bulb. When shorted it slowed dramatically.

Torque was too low to measure with my balances.

24v 10A transformer.

Best case was as above but the speed rose to 666 rpm max. I think it would have been higher with two car batteries (will have to get another)

Torque was again too low to measure but stronger than the first runs.

Timing is given by altering the position of the cam and pulse length by altering the dwell angle. This is quite difficult to achieve especially as the points slip on the acrylic back plate.

The sparking at the points was quite bad, I had to place a 470uf cap between the points and the positive input to reduce the spark. This had little effect on speed.

With the cap in place there were oscillations in the pulse and the radiant spikes disappeared. There are curves on the rise suggesting either coil saturation or maybe some saturation of the stator.

Good charging was observed in the short run raising the voltage of the battery by 2v above standing voltage.

Each run was 4 minutes.

Burned out the recovery diode and stopped to ponder the result.


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 Post subject: Re: Rotary attraction motor
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:48 am 
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2V above standing of good battery? That is good.

It seems you are limited by the spark. How about using transistor triggered by existing contact point?


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 Post subject: Re: Rotary attraction motor
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:30 pm 
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“It seems you are limited by the spark. How about using transistor triggered by existing contact point?”

As I said before I want to stay with points for a while to eliminate semiconductor problems.

I was able to get some torque measurements today.


Duty cycle 10%
Motor driven at 24.2v
Unloaded speed = 448rpm
Torque needed to overcome friction in the bearings = 0.56Kg-cm
Mechanical power consumed by friction = 2.57w


Torque needed to overcome friction in the bearings = 0.56Kg-cm
Torque required to reverse the motor = 12.6Kg-cm
Expected torque = 12.6 x 10% = 1.26Kg-cm
Motor torque loaded down to 300rpm = 0.6Kg-cm
Torque efficiency during rotation = 0.6 / 1.26 = 47.6%

This calculation alone tells me we have more than 50% torque losses so there must be a counter torque in this motor.

Motor torque loaded down to 300rpm = 0.6Kg-cm
Shaft Power =1.85w

I do not have an amp meter that can cope with the pulsing yet so these figures will come later

Remember I still have the squirrel cage on the rotor so this may account for some of the counter torque.


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 Post subject: Re: Rotary attraction motor
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:56 am 
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My post above is not quite accurate, the torque as the rotor moves is not linear and my calculation was based on peak torque, so the losses could be less than 50%


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